stators / rotors testing


Jim-Jim
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Jeeeezzzzz!!!!!

Post by Jim-Jim »

OK, OK, let's dispense with the semantics here. I made a forgetful mistake in saying that an open winding would show (0) ohms while trying to figure out how to show the infinity sign. :cry: That is INCORRECT!!!! :oops: An 'open' winding will show INFINITE resistance (there is NO path between the meter leads, whether analog [needle] or digital [LCD screen]). Unless you have an extremely expensive analog meter, one that goes down to a very small resistance scale, you should probably not use an analog to measure alternator windings - they're just too inaccurate! I would recommend that you stick to digital but be sure they have a very low resistance scale. Even then, the cheapies can lead you astray. If you have a digital that has only one resistance setting (like some Flukes), that's called 'auto-ranging' and is found, usually, in the better meters. By the way, every analog meter I have ever seen has the needle swinging from left to right, with 'infinity' at the left. If the needle moved to show an 'open', then it would constantly be moved to the right when there were no leads attached - a situation that would run the internal battery down. I'm taking the time here because a lot of us don't know the 'inners & outers' of electricity and I hope to help some understand what they are measuring. :wink: I do think if someone scrolls through all these postings, they will have a good idea of what to look for when measuring the alternator windings. :idea:
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Post by busaboy »

I didn't want to draw it out; I was just trying to head off some confusion for those who were going to try some troubleshooting.



BTW - anyone can go to Radio Shack and get a nice DVOM (Digital Volt/Ohmmeter) - the higher the input impedance (ohms per volt), the better, although that is not nearly so important unless one is doing delicate measurements. I think mine was about $30, and it has auto ranging, audible continuity checking, auto-off (I think), and - sometimes important when doing work like ours - it will measure up to 10 amps!



Fukes are sort of THE name in VOMs, but they can get pricey!
Eric
Guest

Re: stators / rotors testing

Post by Guest »

Rocketman #1841 wrote:On thing you might keep in mind is that it takes quite sometime for the alternator to start charging after new brushes are installed. Charge up your battery and take a 5 to 10 mile ride and see what happens. I know it sounds silly but it just might start charging for you. If you have already done that, then I'm stumped also. Best of luck.


This is a 30 day follow-up report on my CBX not charging issue. (gee if I only had spent the $62.00 bucks an hour at some bike shop), The system only decides to start charging when I blast down the highway at 60 or better. The volt meter jumps from a reading of 10 to smack damb in the middle at 12. I replaced the brushes and installed a "new" rotor that was within specs. I just can't seem to get this thing to charge properly :cry: any ideas short of dropping the bike off at a dealer and say " have at it, here's my wallet... :oops:
Jim-Jim
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Alternator Testing

Post by Jim-Jim »

OK, Guest, let's regroup. It's been so long since we heard from you, I had to go back and read all the back & forth to remember what was said. :wink: And I didn't see anything there about the regulator. I had my 'X' out and noticed a couple of things you might find interesting. At about 2K (2000) rpm, and increasing, the voltmeter started swinging from 10-11 V through 12 V and on up to 14V, where it stayed steady. Since everything on the bike is OK, I'm assuming this is 'normal'. So, if I were standing at your bike, this is what I would check. 1) I'd take a close look at the alternator-to-regulator plug and see that all 5 contacts are nice and shiny and there are no 'burn' marks on the plastic housing. 2) I'd look at the other plug from the other side of the regulator and check for the same. 3) I'd put my very fine digital voltmeter right across the battery to watch the charging voltage. 4) Put a big fan on the engine and start 'er up. Don't race the engine - no point; just bring it up through the rpms. If the meter stays on 10-11 volts, you're running off the battery and not getting anything from the alternator/regulator. At 2K+, you should see the voltage start to climb up to 12V; at 4K, you should see it head over torwards 14 and at 5K it should be at a little over 14 (14.4)V and hold steady. Use your digital meter right on the battery as sometimes the Honda meter can lead you astray. Shut the bike down. If, as you indicated, this is NOT happening, then this is what I would check: at the alternator plug, VERY CAREFULLY pierce the black wire with a straight pin - then pierce the white wire with another pin (don't let them touch) - now you have two pins that you can (carefully) connect your voltmeter to. Don't worry about polarity here. Be careful not to let anything touch each other or the frame or any other metal parts (use tape or extra hands to ensure this). Crank 'er up. These two leads are the connections from the regulator to the rotor (through the brushes). I have never measured this myself (I plan to when I get a chance) but I would expect to see something around 6-12 volts (as you bring the rpms up to beyond 2K). This voltage should induce stator output. Since I don't have a reference point for you, let me know what you read so I can file it away. If you ARE seeing 6-12V, I would expect something from the stator leads. Shut 'er down. Now, move your pins to any two of the yellow leads (keep 'em separated) - switch your digital meter to AC Volts (you were using DC Volts before, weren't you :wink: ) because the stator puts out AC (the regulator rectifies it to DC). Again, I have never done this myself but I can make some SWAGS (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) here. I would expect to see 8-16 volts from the stator leads as you crank up through the rpms. Since you have 3 yellow stator leads, you can have three different combinations of yellows to take a look at. No matter what you measure, you should see the same from each combination as you run up through the rpms. If you don't see a reasonable voltage swing on the black/white leads, I would question the regulator. If you don't see reasonable voltage (AC) from the stator but do on the rotor, then I would question the stator. I know this sounds like a bit much but this is what I would go through and, unless they just replace everything in sight, it's what a shop would do. If you DO go through all this, I would appreciate it if you kept notes of your measurements on each of the leads and feed them back to me so I can make note of them for my own future reference. Don't mean for this to be tedious but if you want to track it down, go for it!!!!!!! :D :lol: :shock: :P :) :( Good luck and let us know.
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Another thought

Post by Jim-Jim »

:oha: While shaving this morning, another thought occurred to me. Nowhere along this path has anyone mentioned the idea that maybe the alternator may be slipping and not getting up to speed with the engine. Have you gone through the spring measurements and plate surfaces? Look at other posts in the Tech about the spring free length and plate thickness needed. Is the thrust washer there? As I understand it, if it slips, there should be a lot of noise but I guess it could slip without noise. Anyway, just an additional thought.
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DVOM short course

Post by BadCBX »

8) Hi all, I just join'd the club today. I have a 79 CBX. I work with electronics in my job so I found this site for those that don't use a DVOM on a regular basis.



http://www.fluke.com/application_notes/ ... =1&SID=103



BadCBX
sinclairlaw

Re: Another thought

Post by sinclairlaw »

Jim-Jim wrote::oha: While shaving this morning, another thought occurred to me. Nowhere along this path has anyone mentioned the idea that maybe the alternator may be slipping and not getting up to speed with the engine. Have you gone through the spring measurements and plate surfaces? Look at other posts in the Tech about the spring free length and plate thickness needed. Is the thrust washer there? As I understand it, if it slips, there should be a lot of noise but I guess it could slip without noise. Anyway, just an additional thought.


:shock: Well, Jim-Jim- this charging system on my '79 is still not resolved although I can't say that I have been in the garage everynight trying to remedy the problem (work has me busy with other non-priorites) anyway, I tried to follow your step by step testing from your post of Jun 6. I went out an bought a Radio Shack digital. Now.. I gotta tell ya.. I don't have my readings with me because I am at work, so these numbers are ballpark , but the fully charged battery read across the terminals is not charging past 11 -12 volts when the motor is running, so I can only quess that the bike is running off the battery. I checked the alternator to regulator plug and it was fused together (melted) It took some hard prying (and damage) to get the plugs separated. I cleaned the connections and pluged back together. With a pin contact made between the altenator plug black and white wire, when started the voltmeter readings were erradic with no measurement of 10. The 3 yellow stator leads all seem to have the same continuity between them, however I did not do a test to ground. It is funny that you mentioned the thought process you had while shaving, I recently purchased a new set of plates for the alternator. I was going to save them for a rainy day, but maybe I better give 'em a try. As I mentioned very on very early posts I replaced the rotor and have installed new brushes. Maybe by the time I replace everything it will be charging fine, but I really don't want to do that . thanks to all for all your help!!!!
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Post by z1x »

sinclairlaw,

I know what you are going thru, as my 79 is doing the samething, There is a great web site that badcbx listed under the topic Electrical Problems. http://www.cyclemallusa.com/mall/?AID=20257&PID=208518 Once you get there click on Electrical on the left side of the page and the T/S Flow chart will be center screen.

I downloaded the flow chart (ADOBE FORMAT) and went to work on my 79 and I believe that I have mine isolated to the cause, it is a great add in for my Technical Manual as I found it to be WRONG I mean the reading they were telling me to look for were backwards to what I was getting and I also have a new still in the box requlator and it measured the same as the one on my bike, so I have to believe that the TM is screwed up but the flow chart is great.
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Alternator Measurement

Post by Jim-Jim »

Z1X - Could you be more specific as to what you found to be wrong in the TM? I have downloaded the flow chart but haven't had time to read through it yet. If you could specify what the TM called for and what you found to be wrong, it would benefit all of us. If you may be referring to the diode test, is there a chance you had the polarity reversed (only musing here :D ) ? As for what Sinclairlaw said; if I read him right - if (key on) there is no voltage across the black/white leads in the alternator plug, then the regulator is not putting any voltage out for the rotor and, to me, that means the regulator is defective. But ---- if there is no voltage coming into the regulator (via the 3-pin connector), then the regulator can't do it's job. Note that the green wire in the 3-pin connector is GROUND. Measuring across the Green and Blk wires (key on), you should see battery voltage (+12V). If not, that's your problem. Now I'm going to look that flow chart over. Let us know what you are measuring and where.
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Post by z1x »

Jim-Jim

In the voltage regulator / rectifier test we are checking for resistance in the normal direction Green lead and any Yellow the T/M says 5 - 40 Ohms (On the Bike) checked across all three Yellows (we will number the Yellows) (1.) Green to Yellow Nothing (2.) Nothing (3.) Nothing. Checked for shorts and opens with-in the Yellow wires all check good. Then reverse the leads verifying that I'm checking the correct way across the diodes, and the same readings. Then checked the Green to Black 2.0 Ohms and Green to White 49.7 Ohms again reverse the leads and Green to Black 74.8 Ohms and Green to White 153.9 Ohms

Now A New Regulator out of the box checking it and ended up with the (SAME AS ABOVE READINGS) Then did the same (2) checks on the NEW Regulator Green to Black 2.3 Ohms Green to White 50.4 Ohms and reversed the leads Green to Black 75.8 Ohms and Green to White 155.0 Ohms.

OK Now check Resistance in Reverse Direction T/M says 2000 Ohms min. Red/White to any Yellow On the Bike (1.) 44.5 Ohms (2.) 44.1 Ohms (3.) 44.9 Ohms Red/White to Black 113.6 Ohms and Red/ White to White Nothing. New Out of the BOX (1.) 39.2 Ohms (2.) 40.1 Ohms (3.) 39.9 Ohms Red/White to White 50 Ohms and Red/White to Black 71 Ohms.



So I think they have posted something backwards in the T/M.



Now to the Flow Chart, Fully Charged Battery 2.5 Amp charge for 24 Hours. Now using the flow chart, worked my way down to having the engine warmed and at Idle the Black Lead to the positive (+) terminal on the Battery Connected the RED Lead to the Red/White wire, output of the RR had the RR hooked up and check for more or less than 0.2 Vdc had 10.2 Vdc so did the bad connection in the positive lead from RR to the Battery checking all the way thru and when I got to the top of the 30 Amp fuse holder to the bike wire harness connector had melted together and the wires from the fuse to the connector had melted together. I was able to not damage the connector on the bike side but the one from the fuse up to it's connector had no choice but to cut it to get the two connectors apart and out from there holding clamp.
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Regulator/Rectifier Measurements

Post by Jim-Jim »

OK, here we go. Have been fighting a severe throat for last couple of days but did do some research. What I learned from Electrex guy showed me even old dogs can learn new tricks. :D

Z1X - here's the scoop on the manual inaccuracies. Way back then, they didn't have digital meters and they used 'moving needle' (analog) meters. When those type meters were used to measure a diode, they supplied enough voltage to make the diode 'conduct' (in the forward direction) and show a VERY low resistance. In the reverse connection, of course, the diode would not conduct and show a very HIGH resistance. At that time, the industry standard was for a diode to show at least 10 times forward/backward resistance ratio (good ones far exceeded that). Generally, in broad terms, a conducting diode is considered to be a 'short' (very little voltage drop), although not quite accurate, technically. So the CBX manual show the 'old' resistance measurements and is only accurate if you're using an analog (needle) meter. OK so far? :roll:

Now, enter the new digital meters. Although they are much more accurate, they do so with much lower voltages and 'guess what' :?: they don't provide enough voltage to make a diode conduct when measured in the resistance scales!! That's why they provide a special little 'diode' measuring symbol position. In that position, the meter supplies enough voltage to make a diode conduct and shows 'voltage' measurements on the scale - not resistances. This occurs ONLY on the 'diode' position. So, all of us not used to this (me) have to change our thinking and learn the new ways to read a diode. Hopefully, tomorrow I will feel better enough to sit down with a couple of GOOD reg/rect's and check them out to see how my 'Fluke' and a couple of 'cheap' digitals read the diodes. I'll get back to you on that.

Next - about your reading the flow chart and having some problems (?). I'm sorry but I could not follow where you were in the chart and exactly what you did to burn up some wiring. Could you tell me which arrow (B, C, D) you were coming in on and EXACTLY which block you were following. Honestly, you need to read your paragraph over and see where I could not follow what you had done. I'm not too good on tact but if you had put in some punctuation, I maybe could have followed what you did. I got the impression you were trying to do the +12 volts to the rotor and measure the stator output, but that's only a guess. If you can point me to the flow chart block, I will be able to see what you were doing. I have read the flow chart and feel there are some improvements to be made just for the CBX. Again, if I'm up to snuff tomorrow, I'll try all of these checks on my bike. Sniff, sniff, got to go get some rest. Talk to you later.
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Post by z1x »

Jim-Jim,

Hey sorry to here that you are under the weather.



Ok I was down to the box that had me put the BLACK multimeter-lead up to the battery (+), Connect the RED multimeter-lead up to the RED (or WHITE / RED = KAW) output wire of the RR. Leave the RR connected up to the bike. And let the engine idle, Check the reading on the meter. Well at this point I had 10.2 Vdc so I went to the right and started checking all of the connectors and this is where I found the wire harness that comes out from the top side of the fuseable link that has 1 RED wire and onw RED/WHITE wire and hooks up to the bike harness and continues to the IGN Switch. I found the two wires had melted together and when I tried to separate connectors they were stuck together, I had no choice but to cut the connector on the short end of the harness the one that runs back to the fuseable link. I was lucky as I didn't hurt the other side. (but today I found a bike shop here that carries all of the connectors for the imports, so I now have both sides new) and will build a new short harness, as it is only 2 inches long and I have the male and female sockets that go into the connectors.

I also picked up the new brushes that I ordered so before I go back and start checking. I will replace them and can take a good measurement across the rotor as well, I believe that it is OK because I do get a .5 to .7 Vdc increase in voltage when checking cross the battery and running the engine from idle to 3000 rpm's so there is some out put in the system.
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Post by Jim-Jim »

Boy, this reminds me of when I was an RSS with IBM, helping a CE over the phone 2K miles away. I couldn't see what he was doing and had to rely on what he told me.

Well, after reading through the 4 pages several times, I finally found the block where it says something about connecting the BLACK meter lead to the battery. The only bad news about this is that it's the wrong block to be on!!! :shock: If I've got the right block in mind, it says: "You've got a permanent magnet alternator system." First sentence. The CBX does NOT have a permanent magnet alternator!

Again, if I'm looking at the correct block; the block just ABOVE it says: "Count the # of DIFFERENT wire COLORS coming from the RR." First sentence.

If this is the block you made your choice on, I think I may see where you went DOWN instead of going to the RIGHT. That first sentence should say 'TOTAL' after the first 'the' so you count the total number of colors. The CBX regulator has 5 colors coming out of the two plugs: Yellow, White, Black, Green, Red-White. This should have taken you to the right to "Goto D".

I couldn't really tell, for sure, if this is where you were but it's the only block I found that had what you said you did.

Do you think that the damage you found (melted wires, etc) were a result of your connections you made or were they already melted?

As soon as I get over this miserable cold, I'm going to write up a revision to that flow chart just for CBXs. If you made that mistake, others could, too. I'm also going to throw in a bunch of theory and measuring notes that I find as I test the logic of that flow chart. The original writer may have been trying to be all things to all bikes and some might not apply to the CBX. For sure, we can do without the blocks that DON'T apply; they just get in the way and can confuse.

Let me know if this 'wrong block' idea is accurate. If it's not, give me the very FIRST sentence in the block you were looking at, so I can find it.

Later, I'm still under the weather but wanted to get back to you on this. :D
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Post by Jim-Jim »

Oh, yeah, for everybody that may be following this topic (we're discussing a COMMON problem here), I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you do the following:

Go to your local Home Depot and go to the electrical section. Buy a small box of spade connections, both male and female. To be sure you have the right size, check the WIDTH of the male spade; it should be 1/4" wide. This is the size that will fit INSIDE the female alternator plug. The box should say 'for wire size 14-16'. Pick up about 1-2' of #14 SOLID wire (color doesn't matter). They may give you some flack about such a small length but you're the customer and that's all you need. If you don't have a 'crimping' tool, buy one (you can use pliers/cutters but it's chancy); they're cheap.

When you get home, strip the insulation off of the solid wire. Cut about a dozen (12) 1 to 1-1/2" pieces of bare copper wire. Put a piece of wire into a spade and crimp it tight!!! Do 6 males and 6 females.

Now you have a really good connection into the plugs that come from the alternator and RR. I found that trying to poke around with pointed probes of the meter just didn't cut it and I needed 4 hands to hold it all together. With these copper 'pigtails', you have a GOOD CONNECTION into the plug and a nice place to clip you meter leads to.

I know, I know, what a hassle but, trust me, it will pay off in the long run. You'll have these little test leads to check anytime you have a problem and can run down trouble fast. Further, you will be able to determine how tight the connectors INSIDE the plug are (the females sometimes loose their 'grip' - no jokes here, please). If the male pushes into a 'tight' fit, the connection is good. Using the female spades on the male RR pins is also much more easy than trying to fiddle around with just the meter leads. Just be careful with the female spades so they don't touch each other.

Another note while I'm typing away.

The regulator monitors the 'charging voltage' on the 'BK' (Black) wire, NOT the R/W lead going up to the start relay (battery). This BK lead comes from the main ignition switch on the front dash. So if you have a bad switch base or bad connection way up there, the regulator could see a 'flickering' voltage and kind of go crazy - anything from overcharging to shutting down. So check those connections on the ignition switch and the contacts inside.

Second note:

If you look at the wiring diagram closely, you'll see that the output of the alternator (R/W lead) goes to the downside of the 30A fuse. That means that, if your alternator runs away, there is no fuse protection to the wiring harness, only to the battery. Interesting, no? 8)

More later as I discover.
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z1x
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Post by z1x »

Jim-Jim,

OK I'm in section D and if we number the blocks (Left top #1, the (NO) Arrow #2, the Big block on the top right #3 and the YES Arrow #4) and so on. Block #9 is where all of the measurement go to hell. No ( well I can get .5 Vac @ 5000 rpm's). So in block #9 when I measure the other 2 wires (Black to White) with the MM at the lowest scale "Mr. Fluke shows" resistance of .002 Ohms and when I measure the resistance between the two copper rings it's the same .002 Ohms so I believe that the rotor is gone the only thing is, when I spin the rotor by hand I can get up to .050 Vac output when checking at the Yellow wires, any combo of the yellow wires, I know that spinning by hand really isn't anything but I do get Vac coming out of the generator. Yes I measured with the original brushes and installed new ones and no change in the measurement, .002 Ohms.



So what plays in the back of my mind are the drive plates slipping but there isn't any sign of blueing to them, if I need the rotor then I'll get it just want to be sure.



Checking all of the connectors happened when I seen the red/white smoking, while I was troubleshooting I was checking for 50 Vac @ 5000 rpm's. So I kicked off in that direction to make sure there wasn't any more loose or corrosion on other connectors that could cause this and other possible problems.



I have made several sets of jumpers But what I did was to have the wires come in to a female "socket" that fits real tight around my MM-lead and coming out from the other end I have two wires one with a male (spade) and the other female that way I can check any style and have both hands free if needed.
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