'80 ignition timing

bobber · Post by **bobber** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:03 pm

Took the '80 out for a ride this morning, temp around 25C. Noticed when I tried to start after getting a Timmies coffee that it turned over like the timing is out of wack.
Used to have a Honda degree wheel but cann't find it now so have to search for another. The bike is an 80 with the 79's advancer so any suggestions on a part number? Or another method to check timing?

EMS · Post by **EMS** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:22 pm

The 1979 degree wheel is 07974-4220001 and the 1980 wheel is 07974-4220002.

bobber · Post by **bobber** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:55 pm

Tried ordering the degree wheels. Both are discontinued. Wanted a new clutch nut(90050-422-000) which has also been discontinued.
Thinking I may loosen the advancer pate, fire up the bike and see if moving the plate while running makes a difference. Bugs me about the degree wheel as I used to have one, same as the clutch nut (along with complete clutch) but probably got tossed when I went thru divorce.
Also wanted a front turn signal lense... been discontinued as well.
Been looking at all the stuff I've gathered up over the years. Stuff for the '81/'82 specific can go but the '80 will stay. Got some fork bushings, fork seal, 4 new OEM mirrors, fuel petcock, decals, altimeter, fairing covers for the round holes and some other items.

daves79x · Post by **daves79x** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:29 pm

It sounds like you either have a bad battery (some turn over great cold but not hot), a loose battery or ground connection, or a bad starter. I really doubt it's the timing. Don't sweat the degree wheel - I've had one for 25 years and never used it. Set the timing statically as per the manual. If you need to check the advancer, check with a simple timing light. You really don't need a wheel for that. If you suspect the advancer is sticking (rare, but happens), take it out and clean it.

Dave

alimey4u2 · Post by **alimey4u2** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:16 am

daves79x wrote:It sounds like you either have a bad battery (some turn over great cold but not hot), a loose battery or ground connection, or a bad starter. I really doubt it's the timing. Don't sweat the degree wheel - I've had one for 25 years and never used it. Set the timing statically as per the manual. If you need to check the advancer, check with a simple timing light. You really don't need a wheel for that. If you suspect the advancer is sticking (rare, but happens), take it out and clean it.

Dave

Words of wisdom....

bobber · Post by **bobber** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:20 pm

Out in the shed working on a friends '83 CB1000 Custom, nice bike

Changed fork seals so now waiting for brake parts(sitting too long). Anyway had some time so took cover off the CBX and checked timing via static method. Lined up F mark on crank to find the pulsar ignitor off by about 2 widths of itself. Loosened up plate and lined up pins,(had to turn plate ccw) leaving plate loose so I could move while running. Cann't speak to how bike will start when warm but the difference in 'engine noise' !!!! After many years with the bike I must of gotten use to the little ticks and such growing with time. Just by moving the plate it sounds like it did when new... which I had forgotten.
I'm thinking that after 50,000kms the primary chain must be somewhat strechted, making the difference. Right now, with pins lined up, there is no more adjustment on the plate, unless I enlarge the adjustment slots... but probably best to replace chain if need be.
More to follow after I take it for a spin tomorrow.

alimey4u2 · Post by **alimey4u2** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:11 pm

Seals may be gone on the hydraulic tensioner, that "may" explain the overnight change in ignition timing....Timing is done whilst the primary chain is not under load, IE slack... Not sure though, I need to think a little more.

daves79x · Post by **daves79x** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:38 pm

Has the crankcase ever been split? If so, sounds like the primary shaft was installed a tooth off. This is the result of that - you can't time the engine without slotting the backing plate. As Larry said, it might be that the oil pressure tensioner for the primary chain has malfunctioned. See what happens when you run it.

Dave

bobber · Post by **bobber** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:48 pm

Bottom half hasn't been apart... to best of my knowledge. Top has been twice.
Took bike out and it is VERY different. Able to lift its wheel at about 110kms/hr while shifting from second to third. However timing is too far advanced, judging by pinging while under load and 'tight' to crank when hot... and it does get hot quickly.... but what a rush!
Other than pinging not a sound out of engine.... so quiet. Put advancer back to where it was at and engine definetly labours at idle and doesn't have anywhere near same power. To line up 1&6 ignitor the crank mark is gone past "T" mark.
So appears as though you guys are right...its jumped its primary chain but cann't figure out how. Seems like a winter job. Not sure if I can see anything if the oil strainer is removed. Or if I should try the Dynamic method mentioned in Service manual.

alimey4u2 · Post by **alimey4u2** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:16 pm

Bobber, for me timing is related to the crankshaft. Never mind the readings related to the primary shaft mechanism, timing marks at the crankshaft removes all doubt.

bobber · Post by **bobber** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:17 pm

alimey4u2 wrote:Bobber, for me timing is related to the crankshaft. Never mind the readings related to the primary shaft mechanism, timing marks at the crankshaft removes all doubt.

About to start my 6 shifts on, then off to Toronto for work related training. Trying to understand why engine, when crank "f" mark positioned correctly and ignitors positioned correctly, it is ssoooo quiet and powerful, yet is definetely advanced.
When I get back I'm going to at least look at cams to ensure they were installed right when work done while bike back east. When I adjusted valves never bothered to look, never had a reason too. Something is outta whack.

alimey4u2 · Post by **alimey4u2** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:05 am

What symptoms (when the motor turns over) leads you to believe the timing is advanced bobber ?
Mine seems to struggle to turn over ( for a second) when hot but that's the big bore kit & high compression....

bobber · Post by **bobber** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:59 am

The engine has standard size pistons/rings. It gets hot very quickly and 'pings' when under light load, such as when first starting off. When trying to start engine after out for a ride it 'binds/catches'. I have yet to pull plugs for a look at color. Be a few weeks before I get the chance.

alimey4u2 · Post by **alimey4u2** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:22 am

bobber wrote:The engine has standard size pistons/rings. It gets hot very quickly and 'pings' when under light load, such as when first starting off. When trying to start engine after out for a ride it 'binds/catches'. I have yet to pull plugs for a look at color. Be a few weeks before I get the chance.

Yup your diagnosis is most likely correct. Other factors could be a heavy carbon buildup but that would be limited to a motor with high miles...Or oil contamination which would have shown as a long period of excessive smoking.

Do the symptoms disappear when you use the choke ?

daves79x · Post by **daves79x** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:14 am

About the timing - the cam timing only deals to the cam-to-crank relationship, but the ignition timing is absolutely done through the crank-to-primary shaft relationship. The primary shaft doesn't care how it spins in relation to the crank to do all of it's jobs EXCEPT to time the spark. For that job, the primary shaft has to be installed correctly. A tooth off one way or the other means the stock backing plate slots won't allow enough movement to bring it into time. So in this case, either the cases have been split and the shaft installed a tooth off, or the primary chain has jumped a tooth. I've never heard of that happening. But I have sure seen a few with the shaft off a tooth from incorrect assembly.

In any case it sounds like a venture into the bottom end to see what's wrong.

Dave