I think, at last, I am on to something

[Kool_Biker]

From this:

P1060787-1.jpg

To this:

P1070329 (1).jpg

Because of this:

P1070276 (1).jpg

In a short few nights ... oh, and the head is still assembled, have decided to leave that for later.

Now the real work begins, measuring, evaluating everything and deciding what goes, what stays and what is sent out to be repaired.
I believe as I start my measurements, more horrors will be revealed.

Aris

[Don]

Aris,

Would you e-mail me the full sized version of that disassembled photo please? - That's too neat to pass up . . . . reminds me of a similar photo I got from Dave McMunn of all 6 of the carbs disassembled to their component parts

Thanks!

Don

[Kool_Biker]

Already done, with pleasure.
Aris

[Jeff Bennetts]

Damn Aris, what a long and winding road you have been on. Is the picture you posted the extent of the tear down or will you also be breaking down the oil pump and trans gear assemblies, what about the oil cooler, do you think just a good flush will be sufficient or will you toss it and not take the chance of it recontaminating the motor?

[Kool_Biker]

Yes Jeff, I will tear down everything, and then tear down everything again .
I know now this is the only way to get whatever has been left of this engine back into a good working condition, that will last this time.
I also know there will be quite a few new parts required and I have already started making lists.

And it is an incredible learning exercise, I genuinely like doing this, which takes most of the pain away.

My only genuine concern, other than a bit of loss of confidence , is how to ENSURE when everything goes back IS perfect, and STAYS perfect.
I still can't tell with 100% confidence how this happened. I was fully aware of the glass contamination problem from day 1 and took all measures to ENSURE it would not happen. And it did happen.

Good people in the forum ask me about blocked oil passages. My issue is way - way past this. All oil passages are fully open and spotless!!! And still I missed something so obvious. The only theory that stands at the moment is that some of the glass was ingrained into the soft aluminium in places I could not see (?), which of course poses the issue of how, this time, we ensure it is all out and gone.

And as a bitter happiness pill, EVERYTHING during the tear down (till now that is ...) was absolutely OK. Nothing missing, nothing loose, what ever.

Stay tuned as more horrors will be revealed, I am sure.

Aris

[Kool_Biker]

P1070348.jpg

Anyone recognise these conrods? The one on the right is a brand new, genuine '422' item ... and it does look slightly different.
My rods 'look' right, they are all slightly lighter, and are well within small end to piston pin tolerances. So all's not bad (yet).
Two questions:
1. Is there an easy way to test for straightness, either bent or twist. Have no reason to believe they are, but since I am at it ...
2. There is a weight difference between heaviest and lightest of 3 grams. Is there any benefit to be had by trimming their weight to the lightest one? And if so how?
Cheers, Aris

[Don]

Dave will be the one to fill you in on your rods . . . . he's an expert on what came from Honda and how they are coded - We ran into this when he assembled my engine

I think there are 3 different factory rods - A, B, and C and I think they vary by weight. You need a matched set of 6. My engine had 'A' rods and 2 were bent so we had to buy 2 more of the A spec rods . . . . of course they are the rarest, but Louis fixed us up

If you have a set of 6 matching rods I think the weight of them all should be very close . . . . close enough for Honda's spec anyway

BTW - I have one of the bent ones in my junkbox and you could never tell by looking at it that it's bent . . . . looks perfectly normal to me, but when checked by an expert, the flaw is pretty obvious
Don

[Kool_Biker]

BTW - I have one of the bent ones in my junkbox and you could never tell by looking at it that it's bent . . . . looks perfectly normal to me, but when checked by an expert, the flaw is pretty obvious
Don

Very worrying .. and although I do have a set of six matched ones, I would certainly prefer to save the existing ones if they can be salvaged ..

Aris

[Don]

Aris,

My engine originally suffered a hydrolock early on which bent #1 and then it was repaired by Honda using the original, incorrect '78 factory manual which caused it to break a cam chain - That bent 15 or 16 valves and tweaked 2 of the rods. The bike then sat in storage for 20 or 25 years until I bought it

Unless your engine has suffered from some traumatic event, likely your rods are fine . . . . but now that you have it all apart, it makes sense to check them all anyway. I think Dave's machinist had some sort of laser apparatus which checks everything about them and one of the ones we replaced was only slightly tweaked - But since we were looking at all the bent valves, it made sense to thoroughly examine the rods. I think the other one was bent enough to see with the naked eye

Don

[daves79x]

Aris:
I'll have to do some checking, but I think the replacement rods from Honda are the non-422 ones. I've got a bunch of both here somewhere, plus the '80 engine I have in a million pieces here right now will help sort this out. I always matched rod codes of replacement rods with what was in the engine. Never had a problem with the half-dozen or so engines I've done that needed a rod or two. But I never weighed them either.

I'll check the piston pins I have out here to see which type they are also per your other thread.

Co-incidentally, I'm now in about the same boat you are, Aris. I found a cracked crankcase on the '80 resto I'm doing and am now in the process of prepping a spare set of cases to use. They are also '80 cases that I've had around here for years, but kept for just such a need. The PO had media blasted these also, but it appears with sand. Now I know over the years, guys have used all sorts of media for this job, from sand, to walnut shells, to glass, to soda, to vapor. Many, if not most of those were put into service with no ill effects from the blasting process. Now I'm a bit paranoid about these due to your experience. I spent most of yesterday blowing, scrubbing, blowing some more and flushing every passage in the cases. I found very little sand and after a bit, absolutely none. I removed all the galley plugs and scrubbed, probed and blew air and soapy water everywhere. They sure look clean to me. I painted them last eve and am awaiting a couple of days' drying time to proceed. Also waiting on a complete new set of main bearings - every code was different on the new crankcase.

I have no choice but to use them and can see no reason they are not perfectly clean - but I'm sure you thought so to, Aris. I'll forge ahead here and see what happens. I'll check some parts here for you and let you know.

Dave

[Kool_Biker]

Now I'm a bit paranoid about these due to your experience. I spent most of yesterday blowing, scrubbing, blowing some more and flushing every passage in the cases. I found very little sand and after a bit, absolutely none. I removed all the galley plugs and scrubbed, probed and blew air and soapy water everywhere. They sure look clean to me.
I have no choice but to use them and can see no reason they are not perfectly clean - but I'm sure you thought so to, Aris. I'll forge ahead here and see what happens. I'll check some parts here for you and let you know.

Dave

Dave, what we are talking about here are well established processes; you and I have not invented anything new we are experimenting with.
So with your experience and wisdom, I know you will be OK.

DSC07402.jpg

BUT, talking about paranoid, I WAS PARANOID, about cleaning the cases but obviously missed something very important. Both of them were stripped down to single P/N, all galley plugs removed and a whole day was spent cleaning them.
I also took lots and lots of pics, I still look at them from time to time trying to find a clue, anything to point at what I obviously missed, but so far nothing comes to mind. It is important, to ensure this is not repeated, and also for my sanity

Later on today I will send you a couple of close ups of one or two rods to help you with identifying ..
Cheers, Aris

[Kool_Biker]

Aris,

Unless your engine has suffered from some traumatic event, likely your rods are fine . . . .

Don

Don, I know nothing about the previous life of my engine, so I cannot ASSUME anything
And as you say, while I am at it, I will check everything.

Cheers, Aris

[Kool_Biker]

Dave

Here's a close up of two of my existing rods, in particular no1 & no2.

P1070386.jpg

I know all about the Honda coding system, what would be invaluable is if you:
1. Recognise them, they are not obviously Honda to me
2. They all do have the capital letter stamped on one side of the big end and a number stamped on the other side.
3. As shown in the pic they have more markings; both are marked 'S6' but one has 1 dot (.) next to this, while the other has 3 dots (...). Out of the remaining 4, there is one with two dots as well.

Over and above, although they all visually look straight, is there a simple way to check they are?

As always, any help is welcome

Aris

[daves79x]

Aris:
I have a box of 'C' code rods that are of three styles: Some '422' ones as you have, some 'S6' ones with various numbers of dots. and some 'S3' ones with dots. All appear a bit different in finish and shape, but weighed as follows:

422 - 376G
S6 - 376G
S3 - 374G

I would not be afraid to use any of the above in a 'C' code engine. I can't find my other weight code rods just now to see if 'A', 'B', or 'D' codes are different weights.

My lousy description of how my machinist measured the rods for bends or twists is the best way to do it, but he says there are not a lot of these particular machines out there. As I said, the program makes virtual cylinders out of the big and small ends and compares them for parallel, twists, anything not perfectly in line, all out to several decimal places.

We could see visually the twists in a couple we found bad, but one looked by eye to be straight, but was slightly off. Sight is still a pretty good way to tell, but it helps if you know where the rods came from and their history.

Also, the '80 engine I'm building has the original rods and they are all '422' rods. Hope that helps a bit.

Dave

[Kool_Biker]

Well chaps,
Taking everything into consideration (thanks for all the info and support) and liaising with my friends over at the UK CBX club too, I am sending my crank & rods to SEP, a highly regarded engineering firm in the UK, who have agreed to check and fix my crank, check my rods and mate them to my refurbished crank big ends with the correct size bearings.
Also, by supplying them the crankcase journal numbers, they will do the same for them although of course I will plasti-gauge everything upon return ..

P1070430.jpg

So off to the post office...
In theory, in a couple of weeks I should have an excellent base to start (re -re -)building my engine.
Even more important, one big ticket item is now out of the way. Thus, I can concentrate on the other parts of the engine, see what horrors await me there.
Stay tuned
Aris