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Cry for help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:43 pm
by moecanic
Is there any member here know where I can get two( 2 ) (CDI ) Spark control unit 'Pigtail' so I can replace with the original CDI setup. As most of ya know , when having a issue with the Spark Control ,one can't order unit to switch out. One must order three( 3 ) units and then the nightmare starts . I know there are expensive pulsar or optical units available , but , if someone can help us , just need pigtail to plug an play for 79 CBX . Thanks for any Information
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:28 pm
by NobleHops
Moe,
Welcome to the site!
You should get acquainted with Louis Mintrone if you don't get a response from another inmate. Louis has a lot of everything, and if he has a bad set of ignitors he will probably part with them for short dough so you can get your wiring. Check out usedcbxparts.com and see what you find.
N.
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:15 am
by herdygerdy
Hi there Moecanic,
Firstly, welcome to the CBX 'fun factory' plenty of helpful folk here and lots of good info' available.
Let me preface what I am about to suggest by agreeing with Nils that Louis Mintrone of usedcbxparts.com would most likely be your cheapest and quickest option to get a replacement set of used 3x OEM igniters and the interface 'harness'.
Not really sure what you mean when you say "2 CDI spark control unit pigtail. More info' please? Do you mean you only want to replace 2 (failed?) igniters out of the 3x on one bike only, or do you need 2x 'pigtails' (or wiring harness as I refer to them) for 2x completely separate CBX bikes?
Assuming the first one and you have a CBX-Z, then although individual igniters can be unscrewed off the mounting plate, I have not yet been able to remove one individually from the OEM mounting bracket that has all the black goop underneath them. This because some of the wires are joined together and all those joins are buried deep within the goop.
However, if you are on a really tight budget, then perhaps Louis could provide you with 3x OEM Prolink OKI ignitors that do come individually.
The challenge you then have is creating the 'interface harness adapter' to connect the 3x Hitachi type 6 pin 0.110" female terminals on the new OKI igniters to the 0.250" terminals on a) the 2 position kill switch & earth connector; b) the 4 position connector that provides signal and 12 volts to the coils and finally c) the 6 position one that brings signal to the ignitors from the pulser units.
This is where I can help with either the harness itself or a complete plug 'n play turnkey replacement kit including igniters and mounting plate.
Check out this link below thoroughly and it may help shed some light on precisely what you need to do.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7473&start=15
I am in the process of developing these kits to be available to all owners of early CBX-Zs. Can do them both with new Procom igniters or without (ie; you provide your own igniters). But given the likely age of used igniters - most likely 32 years or older now, IMHO it wold be false economy to go for used ones. The modern ones also give faster switching capability and improved spark.
And while you are at it, strongly recommend fitting an ignition coil relay. Again, I am developing an inexpensive plug and play kit to do this as well.
But, if you are keen to give it a go and have reasonable workshop skills, I am also working on a "how to" document to be used by those who prefer to fabricate up their own harness and 'roll their own'.
Suggest dropping me a PM if you are interested and hope we can get you sorted out very soon. Happy to assist which ever way you decide to go.
Once again, welcome aboard!
Cheers...Tony
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:20 am
by EMS
Guys:
Randy (moecanic) is looking for a harness to adapt the Prolink individual igniters to a 79. The one that I have described in the article about the change. Louis will be no help as this is not a part you get from disassembling a CBX. It has to be made. Randy had asked me if I could make him two, but I do not have the time right now and I have no connectors. If there is someone else out there who has followed that thread and made a pigtail and maybe has some parts left over....
just need pigtail to plug an play for 79 CBX
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:26 pm
by herdygerdy
Thanks for the clarification EMS. So he wants two "pigtails" for TWO separate CBXs.
Happy to help you out Randy as I'm about to make up 4 kits for other CBX'ers so another two sets of 'pigtails' only can easily be added to my "production line"
But need to hear directly from you before this can go any further.
Randy.....are you out there?
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:04 pm
by bubblehead
Are these kits still available?
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:24 pm
by herdygerdy
G'day Bubblehead,
Yes, I 'could' make up a kit for you, but TBH, I won't.
The reason why is that there are now MUCH better options out there for you, so I'd be doing you a disservice if I did say 'Sure, no problem and just took your hard-earned". Also, in some of the kits I sold, a few of the Procomm replacement igniters failed in service - I even had two fail on my own CBX. So there's that.
Roland Skate here in Aus now sells Ignitech ignition kits for the CBX that are, quite literally, plug and play.
To illustrate the benefit of the Ignitech, I heard a friend's very nice CBX running with 40 yr old OEM ignition vs the new Ignitech from Roland and I was gob-smacked by the improvement in starting, idling and throttle response. Changing from old to new ignition was the only change made. It quite literally became absolutely 'butter-smooth' and I had not heard a CBX run as sweetly as that since they were new back in '78. It was truly THAT good.
And using an Ignitech opens the door to consider using 3D ignition mapping and the benefits that brings by fitting either a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) or MAPS (Manifold Air Pressure Sensor), but that is a whole other discussion and few will want to go down that path. All most folks need is reliable simple igntion.
However some immediate benefits of the 'plug 'n play' replacement 'normal' Ignitech units provided by Roland are that they retain your existing super-reliable 3x OEM pulser units mounted on the clutch cover, the auto-advance unit is 'locked up' deliberately as the ignition advance is pre-programmed into the Ignitech ignition so control of ignition advance is much more precise and, best of all, those pesky, leaky old OKI ignitors are removed and discarded into the bin where they belong.
If you want to go further, then I suggest you contact Roland at rolandskate666 [at] gmail [dot] com, you'll be glad you did. With the favorable (for you) exchange rate of AU$ to US$, the price should also be pretty reasonable.
Hope this helps and keep us posted on how you proceed.
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2023 9:06 pm
by steve murdoch icoa #5322
Great info, Tony.
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:39 pm
by divan
Hey, Tony -- just for reference. The OEM potting compound (AKA black goo, etc.) will soften and begin to flow at around 350 degrees F. If the igniters are pulled up and away from the frame, a gentle bit of heat gun work will free up the wires, and won't harm the transistors or wire. I've done this. You can then clean the potting off with ordinary brake cleaner while it's still warm (it will re-cure after a short while).
Wires exposed, you will find that the green (earth) and black/white (+12v) input wires, from the harness, are solder spliced and tape wrapped, into each of the units. Blue and white, from the pulser harness and yellow to the coils are all individually run into each unit. Honda didn't code these wires for each individual igniter (I guess because they were used on so many bikes with different wire codes -- generic units), so if you do this, it's a good time to trace them back through the pulsers and code them before reassembling.
Once all of the old potting compound is removed from the mount and elsewhere, you definitely need to re-pot with modern potting compound. I've read some folks use ordinary silicon, etc. stuff (e.g., JB Weld, RTV, etc). Not a good idea. Most of that stuff includes metal flake for strengthener, and this is conductive. You must use a non-conductive compound, the kind used for potting pc boards, etc. Temp needs to be in the 400-450 degree range, as the old style bi-polar junction transistors (BPJ's) in the units can normally run up around 300 degrees when pushed. That, coupled with Honda not using a heat sink on the spark unit, and stacking it ('79's) on top of the R/R heat sink (which gets very hot) is why the old potting compound melts and flows; that, and the transistors going bad. No other possible cause, except maybe doing an hours long run through Death Valley in peak summer.
Final suggestion on potting compound -- paying extra for potting compound that is made for thermal transfer (absorbs and moves heat away from the units) is good insurance, if one wants to keep those 40+ years old OKI's healthy. Doing this would keep them "looking" OEM, if that matters. If not, mount the damned things on a heat sink.
Also, just for refence, the BPJ's are "current biased," -- they amplify current (amps) and along with that they perform impedance matching (resistance), which boosts the tiny current input (20 ma) from the pulsers to a higher negative output (@3.5 - 5 amps) to the coils and and reduces the whoppingly high input impedance (50 ohms!) to the 3 ohms or so the coils use. Each OKI uses 4 transistors, two of which are configured in what's called a Darlington array. The Darlington's do the heft work in boosting amperage, and that's what generates the heat. So called "modern" remakes of these things switch to MOSFET transistors mostly, which are voltage biased, and so less prone to thermal runaway.
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 11:28 am
by Larry Zimmer
Excellent. Thanks from all!
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:10 pm
by divan
Note on above: Bi-Polars as "BPJ" aka "BJT" -- sorry for the old fashioned terminology, for the tech-wise. DS
Re: Cry for help
Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:53 am
by NobleHops
divan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:39 pm
Hey, Tony -- just for reference. The OEM potting compound (AKA black goo, etc.) will soften and begin to flow at around 350 degrees F. If the igniters are pulled up and away from the frame, a gentle bit of heat gun work will free up the wires, and won't harm the transistors or wire. I've done this. You can then clean the potting off with ordinary brake cleaner while it's still warm (it will re-cure after a short while).
Wires exposed, you will find that the green (earth) and black/white (+12v) input wires, from the harness, are solder spliced and tape wrapped, into each of the units. Blue and white, from the pulser harness and yellow to the coils are all individually run into each unit. Honda didn't code these wires for each individual igniter (I guess because they were used on so many bikes with different wire codes -- generic units), so if you do this, it's a good time to trace them back through the pulsers and code them before reassembling.
Once all of the old potting compound is removed from the mount and elsewhere, you definitely need to re-pot with modern potting compound. I've read some folks use ordinary silicon, etc. stuff (e.g., JB Weld, RTV, etc). Not a good idea. Most of that stuff includes metal flake for strengthener, and this is conductive. You must use a non-conductive compound, the kind used for potting pc boards, etc. Temp needs to be in the 400-450 degree range, as the old style bi-polar junction transistors (BPJ's) in the units can normally run up around 300 degrees when pushed. That, coupled with Honda not using a heat sink on the spark unit, and stacking it ('79's) on top of the R/R heat sink (which gets very hot) is why the old potting compound melts and flows; that, and the transistors going bad. No other possible cause, except maybe doing an hours long run through Death Valley in peak summer.
Final suggestion on potting compound -- paying extra for potting compound that is made for thermal transfer (absorbs and moves heat away from the units) is good insurance, if one wants to keep those 40+ years old OKI's healthy. Doing this would keep them "looking" OEM, if that matters. If not, mount the damned things on a heat sink.
Also, just for refence, the BPJ's are "current biased," -- they amplify current (amps) and along with that they perform impedance matching (resistance), which boosts the tiny current input (20 ma) from the pulsers to a higher negative output (@3.5 - 5 amps) to the coils and and reduces the whoppingly high input impedance (50 ohms!) to the 3 ohms or so the coils use. Each OKI uses 4 transistors, two of which are configured in what's called a Darlington array. The Darlington's do the heft work in boosting amperage, and that's what generates the heat. So called "modern" remakes of these things switch to MOSFET transistors mostly, which are voltage biased, and so less prone to thermal runaway.
Outstanding content!