Intersting place
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Intersting place
Bobistheoilguy.com
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- Limey01
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Re: Intersting place
That was quite a lot to digest but very interesting both from a antique motorcycle/car perspective and what I do for a living which is a technician at a gas turbine power plant. Our gas turbines were commissioned in 1994 and were initially filled with a Group 1 base stock oil. We are still running this same oil but analysis shows that the additive package is getting low.
Later units running Group 2 base stock oil have had a lot of problems because these particular units also use the lube oil as hydraulic oil (up to 3600psi) which causes the additives to precipitate out and form a varnish. This causes numerous problems with the control valves which are hydraulically actuated by the same oil and start sticking during operation.
The latest innovation is a PolyAlkaline Glycol (PAG) lubricant which sounds like an anti-freeze and, interestingly, is also the same stuff you have to drink before going for a colonoscopy. There are a number of turbines that have been using this for several years with no issues but I have yet to see it in the automotive field.
So my dilemma is what to replace the oil with on our turbines, bearing in mind that they hold close to 8,000 gallons each. I actually understood more about that article than I really want to.
Later units running Group 2 base stock oil have had a lot of problems because these particular units also use the lube oil as hydraulic oil (up to 3600psi) which causes the additives to precipitate out and form a varnish. This causes numerous problems with the control valves which are hydraulically actuated by the same oil and start sticking during operation.
The latest innovation is a PolyAlkaline Glycol (PAG) lubricant which sounds like an anti-freeze and, interestingly, is also the same stuff you have to drink before going for a colonoscopy. There are a number of turbines that have been using this for several years with no issues but I have yet to see it in the automotive field.
So my dilemma is what to replace the oil with on our turbines, bearing in mind that they hold close to 8,000 gallons each. I actually understood more about that article than I really want to.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
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Re: Intersting place
Wait, same type of oil, or same oil? Sounds like it's been rockin' the same mass of lube through more than 20 years!Limey01 wrote:That was quite a lot to digest but very interesting both from a antique motorcycle/car perspective and what I do for a living which is a technician at a gas turbine power plant. Our gas turbines were commissioned in 1994 and were initially filled with a Group 1 base stock oil. We are still running this same oil but analysis shows that the additive package is getting low.
So my dilemma is what to replace the oil with on our turbines, bearing in mind that they hold close to 8,000 gallons each.
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Re: Intersting place
“Wait, same type of oil, or same oil? Sounds like it's been rockin' the same mass of lube through more than 20 years!”
Yep, that oil was poured into the sump in 1993!!! Been carefully filtered and monitored and still the only problem it has is that the anti-oxidant additives are getting low. Pretty amazing. Using full flow 1 micron filters and also a “kidney loop” electrostatic filter that removes the “varnish”, or sub-micron particles,that I mentioned before. Change the filters every other year! When it holds 8,000 gallons at about $5 a gallon you make it last. Actually, nowadays, it probably costs more to get rid of the old oil than to buy the new. I could heat my house with that for about 10 years!
Yep, that oil was poured into the sump in 1993!!! Been carefully filtered and monitored and still the only problem it has is that the anti-oxidant additives are getting low. Pretty amazing. Using full flow 1 micron filters and also a “kidney loop” electrostatic filter that removes the “varnish”, or sub-micron particles,that I mentioned before. Change the filters every other year! When it holds 8,000 gallons at about $5 a gallon you make it last. Actually, nowadays, it probably costs more to get rid of the old oil than to buy the new. I could heat my house with that for about 10 years!
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
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Re: Intersting place
Not certain, but, that PAG rings a bell as an additive now being used in some A/C compressors oils in automotive. Might be worth investigating as something to add to the existing stuff. Yes, if base oil is maintained clean enough, and not overheated, it is nearly indestructible. The additives are usually the problem. Thanks, all.
Larry Zimmer
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- Syscrush
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Re: Intersting place
If the issue is with the additives, couldn't the oil be doctored in-place with those additives?
- Limey01
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Re: Intersting place
It has been tried many times but it is not quite as simple as stirring in some new additives. They have to bond at the molecular level with the base stock and, as far as I am aware, no one has come up with a way of doing this on an industrial scale in the field. There is a PAG additive that has been used successfully which also brings back into solution all the varnish that has precipitated out and effectively cleans the system. This is applied by draining about 25% of the oil and replacing it with the PAG. It is commonly used prior to switching over to a PAG so that the traditional flush and clean is not necessary. I have not heard of anyone running this long term but it may be possible.Syscrush wrote:If the issue is with the additives, couldn't the oil be doctored in-place with those additives?
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Re: Intersting place
I must be missing something because I'm with Phil on this one.
If the added anti-oxidents bonded to the base stock originally, what will stop them bonding now?
A system that adds the same anti-oxidents (after filtering) in very small amounts over a long period of time should bring your additive levels up to spec and then be able to maintain those levels.
ie... Filtering, monitoring then additive infusion. Are there not companies that repurpose used motor oil this way?
If the added anti-oxidents bonded to the base stock originally, what will stop them bonding now?
A system that adds the same anti-oxidents (after filtering) in very small amounts over a long period of time should bring your additive levels up to spec and then be able to maintain those levels.
ie... Filtering, monitoring then additive infusion. Are there not companies that repurpose used motor oil this way?
Canadian Amateur Radio Call sign VE6 VES
- Syscrush
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Re: Intersting place
That quote is hilarious taken out of context.Mouse wrote:I must be missing something because I'm with Phil on this one.
- Limey01
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Re: Intersting place
I’m no chemist or molecular physicist, all I know is it’s been tried and, thus far, does not work. I’m just the grunt who tries to keep these beasts running. For those unfamiliar with industrial gas turbines these are essentially 220,000 shaft horse power internal combustion engines. Think about that for a minute. Had one wreck a couple of years ago, not a pretty sight. Cost roughly $11M to put it back together. We don’t mess around with things like lube oil. If in doubt, change it.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.