CBX Racing

CBXs, new bikes, old bikes, cars, trucks, general chat, off topic, this is the place to post it.
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EMS
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by EMS »

Warwick Biggs wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:55 am
The funny thing is Honda addressed every issue criticised by Two Wheels in the Prolink but they did not sell and nearly bankrupted the coy. Sometimes you can't win, no matter what you do.
It is pretty well established among historians that Honda had no intentions to successfully continue the CBX. Kawasaki launched a test balloon with the 1980 KZ1300B2 to gauge the interest for a full touring version and at that time, it became clear, that their intent had been for a touring bike to compete with the GL1000 and not for a performance Superbike, making the CBX a moot point.
On the track, the CBX was not a real competitor because the displacement of over 1000cc made it too difficult to homologate in many classes and the CB900F was the better bike. Even in endurance racing with over 1000cc, the inline 4 in form of the CB1100R would run circles around the CBX.
For the street, Honda in 1981/82 was already working on the V4 concept, which was taking over from the inline DOHCs, albeit for a limited time.
Whatever way you look at the CBX as it morphed into a Sport Tourer, its life was doomed.

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Syscrush
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Syscrush »

Thanks for taking the time so scan that - I'll see if I an assemble it into a workable PDF.

BTW - it's only the thumbnails that are flipped. Looks like an oddity of the forum software - strange.

Also, I was pretty jealous of that fuel consumption until I realized that it was converting to Imperial gallons instead of US. :laughing-rolling:
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Pics of Perry, my '79.

Warwick Biggs
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

One of the things that immediately strikes me is that the test is far more comprehensive and technically literate than we generally see in the magazines today. Two Wheels Oz hit the dust about 6 months ago and is now extinct leaving only Australian Motorcycle News to fill the gap. It was apparently a victim of the advertising drought and difficulties transitioning to social media that has so grievously affected news generally. Gossip and opinion (& too often, spleen) having displaced quality journalism.

Also, how attitudes change. How a Comstar could be considered "light" challenges ones' ideas of relativity. The speculation that the poor stability was caused by the steel frame was up a wattle (if you have ever seen how a wattle grows, you will understand that expression). The CBX frame is strong enuf' but the skinny forks and under nourished rear swingarm and suspension were the culprits and subsequently addressed by Honda with the Prolink; the X being a bit rushed and premature, less thought was given to the chassis.

The inadequate brakes were also fixed (in fact over engineered with the vented rotors). The small tank was not. As for the horn and lights, they are incidentals. Overall tho' you would have to say that Honda San may have been paying close attention to Two Wheels and Cycle Torque because he did address most of the identified shortcomings but at great almost terminal cost. But why nobody wanted to pursue a rip roaring sports bike is harder to fathom. Yes, EMS the 900 may have offered a cheaper alternative but I reckon there were other factors such as the first oil shock where motorists suddenly found themselves facing fuel rationing. Do you remember the trauma that event elicited? The public mood changed, the Castrol 6 Hour was no more and many great races ceased. The race tracks were gobbled up by expanding suburbia and motorcycle clubs started shrinking. Disco took over and the new liquid cooled bikes arrived wrapped in plastic fairings with lurid colours to match the prevailing tasteless pop ethos. The golden era of motorcycling was over b4 we realised it.

Now Alex also dug out another longer road test of the CBX over 5,000 klms round Oz that I can upload if there is interest. It covers some of the day to day idiosyncrasies of the six. And Phil, I look forward to seeing the results of your efforts to put this tarradiddle into some sort of correctly aligned and more digestible order.

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Re: CBX Racing

Post by shiskowd »

I stitched together a pdf file, thanks for posting - very thorough article, not at all what you see in the mag's these days, at least in North America.
Two Wheels CBX Article Feb 1979 Reduced.pdf
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2022 KTM 890R, 1982 Pro-Link, 1979 CBX 'Z, 1975 Moto Guzzi 850T
Long Sleeping '79 CBX Restoration > viewtopic.php?f=102&t=11699

Warwick Biggs
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

Thanks Shiskowd. My CR Specials from Bito San arrived this morning. Note the fine castings, the side mounted linkage and central bell crank as well as the shallow 'V' bank matching the layout of the original CV's.

I'm hoping gas flow will be improved and they will be lighter on the hand than the Keihin USA units that Bill Brint at TIMS had made up. Without the vacuum assist the smoothbores can be fairly heavy and tricky to operate as a consequence, especially when you try to throttle off after a flat out open throttle. They just want to stay open because of the venturi affect! So you have to be very positive with the push cable because the springs are not strong enuf' by themselves.
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

Side mounted linkage makes for more straight forward cable routing.
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Re: CBX Racing

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I can go round corners...
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

The name to remember. Bito San also does a lot of stuff for other Japanese marques but he has an extensive catalogue of special CBX parts.
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AshishNJ
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by AshishNJ »

What does having an fcr carb achieve compared to stock if it is put on a standard unmodified engine . Sorry I am new to this and see lots of custom cbx with fcr. While I continue with my build, makes me wonder .
1979 CBX (faster Red)
1981 CBX Streetfighter
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Past rides : FZ1, BMWS100rr,S1000r,k1300S,YAMA RD350,Enfield 350

Warwick Biggs
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

Having not tried FCR's on a CBX, I don't know Ashish. Perhaps others can advise? I use smooth bore CR Specials because they are all that is allowed under our historic racing rules. Flat sides were a later development. Not period old boy!

The CR Specials offer a number of advantages over the stock CV's for racing such as instant throttle response and greater tuneability with modified engines. However, I do not recommend them for standard street use because apart from anything else they make for a very heavy throttle absent the vacuum assistance of the stock CV's. The straight banks also involve problematic packaging compromises for racing altho' some will tell you they are worth the extra power. I used to think that was the case until I decided I could no longer live with the compromises.

The FCR's are a more advanced version of the CR's but likely to suffer the same problem with 6 of the things. However, Bito San has re-engineered them to overcome the perceived shortcomings and his are much lighter on the hand as a result. They are top quality kit.

At some stage like Theseus's Ship the improvements you make to a CBX stop being a CBX and that is a road to nowhere in my opinion. You may as well buy a well engineered modern bike. Some changes to the first model were made by Honda and greatly improved handling and braking. After that it depends on what you want from your CBX. This conundrum has been well analysed elsewhere on this site.

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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

Going back to the early weaknesses identified in Oz road tests of the CBX, it was evident from early on, especially in racing that the gearbox had a weakness for jumping out of second gear. Honda never did get around to fixing that particular problem and for racing, the dogs have to be undercut. Anybody who rides their CBX hard is likely to be looking at re-building the gearbox sooner or later.

However, this needs to be put into the context of the era. The Ducati Darmah for example suffered from catastrophic crankshaft failures that the factory was slow to acknowledge. When Steve Wynne built the famous bike that Mike Hailwood rode to Victory in the comeback TT he replaced both the big and little ends in the special race engine the Ducati factory supplied and it was well known that the race bikes (including the so-called 'production' race bikes) were specials. Nobody ever seriously raced a Darmah or SS off the showroom floor.

Kawasaki never did get their big 6 properly sorted and they continued to suffer from overheating despite water cooling and in later models, increasing the sump capacity by over a litre. Honda itself struggled with tolerance problems with the CX500 and later camshaft failures on the early V4's so the gearbox weakness in the CBX was relatively minor by comparison and it has to be said that Honda tried hard to establish the CBX as the pinnacle of production motorcycle design. For a period of history known for excess (think Disco) the CBX hit all the high notes.

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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

For all those CBX enthusiasts who love the classics here are some pics of the SA Historic Championship that we hosted over the weekend. Everything from a racing Black Shadow to 200 hp Trex's, the latest Molnar Manx's (Matchless & Norton), ESO's, Jawa's, Aermacchis, TSS's. KTT's, Mach3's, 4's, Z1's, K1's not to mention some very quick hand shifters and bucket loads of NSR's, RS's, TZ's, LC's etc.

But no CBX this time as we are not race fit and I still have to install the new carbs and get it onto the dyno.

https://www.facebook.com/SCooper-Photog ... 3782362048

I had a bit of unwelcome drama as the Covid Marshal that resulted in a police chase across 2 States that ultimately turned out to be nothing more than over embellished pit gossip - to our great relief. I would not have had the courage to face hundreds of pent up classic racers to tell them we were having to cancel the first serious race meeting in 9 months because of a compliance breach. Thankfully, it was just a Furphy.

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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

The JB CR Special carbs are now installed and as you can see, from the rear you can't see them at all. This also means I won't be hitting the velocity stacks with my knees which was a problem with the straight bank.
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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

And the linkage on the end if the bank is so much better. Easier to hook up the cables and I can even adjust the idle while sitting on the grid.

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Re: CBX Racing

Post by Warwick Biggs »

Hmm. Did not load for some reason. Let's try again...
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