Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

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Mike Cecchini
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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by Mike Cecchini »

Interesting....... didn't you know that DOT5 silicone brake fluid is strictly forbidden and not to be used in Ducati's Brembo brake systems ? :face:

There is a way to do it though..... as I've done it in the 851, 888 and the Mike Hailwood Mille'. But I'm no "expert either. I do however find out all the "why's" and "why not's" .......so I can make informed decisions without relying on others (usually tainted) opinions on such things as important as brakes.

I will say that Mike Nixon's all-around experience with motorcycles lends considerably weight to his opinion.....but even Nixon doesn't tell the whole story about DOT5 Silicone brake fluid........such as:

1. "..... and (silicone DOT 5) does not aggressively attract additional moisture as glycol fluid does."
This is a misleading statement. It leads one to believe that DOT 5 silicone brake fluid attracts "some" moisture. Fact: silicone brake fluid does not attract or absorb any moisture.......it actually repels moisture and water.


#2 "...silicone fluid is also slightly more compressible than glycol fluid...".
Sorry.......physics 101..... fluids are not compressible.

#3 "... and worst of all, (silicone) neither accepts or disperses moisture, making systems more corrosion prone, and requiring much more frequent fluid changes."

First he implies that silicone accepts some moisture, now he says it doesn't. But he then says silicone is more corrosion prone (with water in it) thus requiring more frequent changes (than DOT 3, 4, 5.1). Huh ??

Well guys........ so much for Mike Nixon's silicone brake fluid expertise. :oops:

Moving on........

#1. Mike....you mix apples (extremely hi-performance racing car/bike that ) and oranges (stock street brake system).......and the requirements, priorities and needs of each.......which are considerably different.

#2. You also mentioned water (condensation) pooling in your earlier commentary. This myth was pass around in the early days of Silicone brake fluid by anti-silicone brake fluid makers because they were seriously threatened by silicone brake fluid sales and rights maker (Dow Corning) wanted serious royalties paid for other companies to produce and sell silicone brake fluid as it was a patented process.

The fact is, once a system is filled with silicone brake fluid there is no vacant area(s) for water/moisture to occupy as silicone is unable to hold moisture, which DOT 3, 4, 5.1 do VERY aggressively do. Hence with DOT5 silicone brake fluid there is no water or moisture "pooling" to cause corrosion.

The reality is it's been found that those who have installed Silicone brake fluid, rarely, if ever....completely drain and flush out all the old DOT 3, 4 or 5.1 brake fluid......which has been absorbing moisture usually for years......and then when problems arise with this (not removed) moisture.......they blame the Silicone brake fluid for not absorbing the moisture and "pooling". :roll:

Let's face it..... how many times have you see this sort of thing in your life. Every slacker out there thinks all he has to do is undo the cap and pour a magic potion in his car and it will never have to be touched again ? The sad thing that if he'd put the silicone brake fluid in "properly"......which calls for a full flushing of all non-silicone brake fluid...... he could do brake fluid changes every 10 yrs (even though I see nothing wrong with 20 yr change-outs, but they wouldn't sell much would they ?)........ and NEVER see master cylinder or caliper corrosion again.

Like I mentioned in my commentary. I built several brake systems when DOT 5 came out in the late 70's, one of was an old Jag I still have. When I opened the brake system in 1996 to begin back on the road preparations (it had been sitting in outside Maryland storage for 12 yrs) .......... the master cylinder and all the calipers were as if I had done the brakes the previous day. There was no corrosion and no signs of deterioration what-so-ever. Well I'll be....... :shock:

Ok....... let's get back to bikes we use on the roads and forget the race track because Nils never intends to race his CBX. His CBX will probably sit more than it moves.......so this is what we should consider. Long term sitting, street performance braking needs and a major consideration in preventing moisture causing corrosion over the entire braking system.

Here's what 32 years of working with Silicone DOT 5 brake fluid has shown me with street bikes.

Pro's:

1. You don't have to worry about any painted parts (gas tank, master cylinders, calipers, fenders) as silicon brake fluid harms none of these......or anything else for that matter.

Don't know about you......but I really hate it when I repaint a master cylinder or caliper and get a drop of DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid on the fresh paint......and it removes the paint. Grrrrrrr.

I also hate that one single squirt of the master cylinder that sends a tiny thin stream of brake fluid across your gas tank and onto your wife's car...... bubbling the paint in mere seconds.

2. Forget about brake system corrosion issues. No more white fuzzy stuff drooling from your bike down on parts and eating anything and everything in it's path because you covered the bike and leaned it against the wall....... 8 yrs ago...... now you have a complete mess on your hands..... and lots of parts to clean-up or replace.

3. 5--10--15 yr brake fluid change outs........ pick one. :)


Cons:

1. Slightly harder to bleed all the air out.......leaving many to believe "that's the way it is". Reality....... for full brake performance you should go back several times over 2--3 month period to get all the air out. My Ducati 888 took almost 6 months......but I'm really picky and I use it on the track........so I want all the brake performance I can get and the brake lever is every bit as firm as when I used DOT 4 brake fluid. You just have to work at it a little more..... some think this is unaccepable, I don't because the benefits of Silicone far out-weigh the extra effort to do it right.


Btw.......#2 1980 X that I've busted my ass doing a complete disassembly, cleaning, glass beading all parts, painting and installing back on the bike is only getting one kind of brake fluid for the rest of it's life...... DOT 5 Silicone. Why ? Because I did the first 80X this way and the brakes are great.......and I never want to rebuild anther CBX brake system again. :P

Conclusion...... if you think 32 yrs experience with and using DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid is "hair-brain" theory...... well....... what's left to say.

I know what makes me happy and jut like electronic ignitions did to points ignitions...... DOT 5 silicone brake fluid does to DOT 3, 4 brake fluids for our older bikes that sit more than they should move...... kinda like us these days.......eh ?? :face:
It's not what you ride.....it's how you ride.

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by EMS »

Oh boy! This thread would go on forever, if I didn't shut up.
Just one final thing and I am done with this.
Mike, you ever so often voice your distain for politicians and their ways of acting and arguing. Have you ever recognized you are doing the exact same thing when it comes to hammering your own personal point home???

Here is a typical example.
First you put something in Mike Nixon's mouth, something he never said:
1. "..... and (silicone DOT 5) does not aggressively attract additional moisture as glycol fluid does."
This is a misleading statement. It leads one to believe that DOT 5 silicone brake fluid attracts "some" moisture. Fact: silicone brake fluid does not attract or absorb any moisture.......
Why the heck would that lead one to believe that it attracts "some" moisture???? Only if you want it to say that.
For most everybody else it says: Glycol based fluid does agressively attract moisture. Silicone based fluid does not. Period.

Then, of course, you go on and use your own twisted quote of the other position:

#3 "... and worst of all, (silicone) neither accepts or disperses moisture, making systems more corrosion prone, and requiring much more frequent fluid changes."

First he implies that silicone accepts some moisture, now he says it doesn't. But he then says silicone is more corrosion prone (with water in it) thus requiring more frequent changes (than DOT 3, 4, 5.1). Huh ??

For me, frankly, it is not worth to continue that discussion.

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by zxbob »

Image

Bob
Good parts aint cheap ~ and cheap parts aint good !

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by Mike Cecchini »

#1.

Sorry Mike .... I don't ever recall saying anything about politicians activities or discussions.
Is this your way of getting off-topic ?

"Hammering ?? I don't see anyone "hammering" Mike. All I see is a discussion about the facts of DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid which you and Mike Nixon had your facts, some very gray and some completely wrong. I presented a clear, well written lay-out of the correct facts and my 30+ year experiences with silicone brake fluid.

Btw....... you've posted 5 times on this thread, but when I come in to set the record straight with just three postings..... you begin using words like "hammering", "'arguing" and "twisted". Seems to me you've been the one who's changed the tone here in an attempt to raise other issues. Maybe you should think on what you do in your replies to others before you make accusations.

#2.

No Mike.......read Nixon's words carefully. Nixon says Silicone DOT 5 does not AGGRESSIVELY attract additional moisture as glycol fluid does. Meaning it attracts some moisture......but not AS AGGRESSIVELY as glycol based brake fluids.

In case you don't understand the English language, there is a considerable difference between attracting SOME moisture.......and attracting NO moisture at all. That is what is misleading about Nixon's statement.

#3

MS: "Then, of course, you go on and use your own twisted quote of the other position"

Well Mike....... you may think it twisted......but it is very clear to me......Nixon is a bit confused about what he really knows and thinks. Certainly he hasn't stated his case clearly, so the reader is left with an unclear conclusion about exactly what he is saying........at the very least.

In conclusion:

It's always your prerogative not to respond Mike especially when you don't have your facts straight, but most people would acknowledge them and learn, something you seemingly find difficult to do.

All in all, the facts speak for themselves and the fact is for Nil's 80X...... Silicone brake fluid would be a VERY wise choice for him and many other CBX owners.
It's not what you ride.....it's how you ride.

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by Mike Cecchini »

zxbob wrote:Image

Bob

Lol......... :D
It's not what you ride.....it's how you ride.

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by zxbob »

Mike Cecchini wrote:
Lol......... :D

I had to do it . . . . . . . . :wink:

Bob
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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by EMS »

Mike Cecchini wrote:#1.

Sorry Mike .... I don't ever recall saying anything about politicians activities or discussions.
Is this your way of getting off-topic ?
It's another symptom. It's called "selective memory". Let me help you:
....... then get rid of those in congress who only concerned with their own personal agenda ...... we'd have one-hell-of-a country again.
My Aussie friends are still hammering me on how we could ever elect a drunkard, druggie, draft dodging idiot that could barely speak.
Once is a mistake........but TWICE ??? Unbelievable.
Obama, while not perfect.... is 1000 times better.
Just like American politicians..... you'll get in bed with anyone and f--- (edited by moderator)
everyone.

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by Mike Cecchini »

Ahhhh yes...... that's when you tried to change the focus of this discussion.......so I'll ask you again..... what does any of this political stuff
have to do with DOT 5 Silicone Brake fluid in Nils CBX ? Absolutely nothing..... so let's not go there as we need to stay on (CBX) topics here....... right ?

Btw....... if you really did put DOT 5 in your Ducati 916 ..... you need remove all internal master cylinder and caliper rubber parts and replace them with new bits..... the original rubber bits will never be the same and eventually turn to complete mush. Nice one Mike. :no
It's not what you ride.....it's how you ride.

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by EMS »

Who said politics has anything to do with brake fluids :roll: I said you argue like the politicians you dispise. It seems like it is you who needs a little help with the English language.
Yes, Mike, you are right. Oh yes, and you are right! :sleep:
President Obama has intentions to outlaw the use of glycol brake fluids. :shock:
The Ducs were race bikes and did not have Brembo brakes anymore. 8)
My last post in this thread. Definitely. I swear! :!:

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by Mike Cecchini »

EMS wrote:Who said politics has anything to do with brake fluids ? I said you argue like the politicians you dispise. <snip>
Too funny......you're the one who brought politics into a DOT 5 discussion. Seems once you begin to lose a debate..... you try and change the subject. Not very effective Mike..... kinda sad actually. :cry:

Also, you begine to use words like "hammering", "argue" and "dispise" to intice and inflame a fact-finding discussion you're loosing........when all along you just don't know what you are talking about. :no

If you'd put as much effort into doing your thread/topic homework as you put into trying to discredit others that know a little something..... you'd actually know something. :shock:

Back to the issue ...... DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid in Nils CBX......and that it is the best thing for him and his X to install silicone brake fluid.
It's not what you ride.....it's how you ride.

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by NobleHops »

zxbob wrote:Image

Bob
OK, that was funny :-)

N.
Nils Menten
Tucson, Arizona, USA '80 CBX, sort-of restored :-)

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Re: Brake caliper rebuild dos and don'ts?

Post by alimey4u2 »

:lol: :lol: :lol:
ICOA # 656

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