Dyna-S trigger units misalignment


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Kool_Biker
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Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by Kool_Biker »

About a year ago I bought a Dyna-S ignition system to replace my ailing OEM one.
It went in 1st go and seems to be working fine ever since.

Earlier today however, I had the time (and was in the mood) to do a thorough check on the alignment of the 3 comprising triggering units, between them.
P1070016.jpg
I took every precaution and had multiple readings taken. Engine cold, engine warm, at idle and at 3 ~ 4 K RPM (after 1st advance leg exhausted).

All readings were concise, and all indicated that the 3 units were not exactly 120' apart as they should.
In particular they were at: 119', 115' and 126', pointing that referenced to one trigger unit, the 2nd was out by 1', while the third on was out by by 5'.

I wouldn't make a fuss for the 1', but 5' I think this is excessive.
Tomorrow I will embark upon the task of slowly aligning them better.

Has any one else had the same / similar experience??
Must say I am a little disappointed as the instructions which came with my purchase at no point warn / point to a need for aligning the trigger units BETWEEN THEM.
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Aris Hadjiaslanis
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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by herdygerdy »

A very Interesting point Aris, something I have also been thinking about checking, but for me it will be on my stock pulser units /backing plate. Haven't looked yet to see if any adjustment on individual pulsers on the plate is actually possible.

It makes sense to me that when set correctly, it would help give a smoother idling and running engine if the plugs are fired at precisely the same point in the combustion cycle across all six cylinders.

Will be watching your results with interest and thanks for sharing.

Cheers..Tony

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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by daves79x »

I'm sure you can improve on your observed settings, Aris. Like you, I was disappointed in the overall instructions I've seen with the Dyna system. I'm thinking a lot of them get installed with the static timing pretty far out.

Dave

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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by NobleHops »

Yes Aris, I can't recall who, but somebody else very recently observed the same thing and rectified it. May have been Rol on CBX World. I will follow in your footsteps with what you do.

N.
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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by Kool_Biker »

Looking at an easy :laughing-rollingyellow: way to fix the alignment error above, I dismantled my unit only to find adjusting screws both at the front (expected) and back of the mounting plate (still expected, but a bummer no less).
P1070019.jpg
This side of actually building a jig to do these properly, that is dynamically, I am wondering what is the best, realistic way this can be done in situ.
Guess triggering of these units is a combination of proximity as well as angle relative to the firing magnet ...

Nils, you mentioned somebody went through this recently? I did a search in CBX World as suggested with no success ... Can you help further?

Any other suggestions?
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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by FalldownPhil »

Just an aside to this excellent thread. Did you know??? that this ignition system was actually designed and built by Dyna for the Kawasaki triples :-)
The only piece of it that is proprietary to the CBX is the rotor. (reluctor)
Best,
Phil
When you are up to your ass in alligators it is sometimes difficult
to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp !!

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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by Kool_Biker »

Hey, after practically having to 're-invent the wheel' understanding and setting up my 3 Dyna-S triggers on their mounting plate, so they are exactly 120' apart, I now know WHY they were out of misalignment in the first place! They were misaligned because they couldn't be aligned properly!!
Of course production testing at Dyna should catch this and have the unit reworked. Instead, it went out the door to be sold ...

To cut a long story short, and save you the 20+ installations, adjustments, removals of the ignition plate, it had to do with the red wire that goes around all three triggers (common).
P1070030.jpg
This red wire is a tight fit around all 3 triggering units, and it should be, so it does not accidentally get pinched by any of the washers of the 3 philips mounting / timing adjust screws.
In my case it was a little too tight between 2 units, limiting the relative travel between them.
So even if it was jig tested at the factory, it couldn't be adjusted without them going into the trouble of lengthening one segment of the red wire, to allow enough travel, get those missing 5' or 6' from ~115 to 120'

I followed the only solution available to me, so I cut and lengthened the offending wire which gave me ample room for adjusting.
P1070033.jpg
P1070036.jpg
I am now satisfied my 3 trigger units are very close to 120' apart (+/- 0.5').

To expedite adjusting of the trigger units with the engine running, I devised a few simple tools also shown below. Note the little allen key in-situ with the engine running. There is just enough space to operate (I am glad ICOA is US based, if I had this pic posted in the UK, Health & Safety police would probably have me deported).
P1070038.jpg
P1070041.jpg


I hope my 2 evenings spent trying to get to the bottom of this will help someone out there. I was not impressed with Dyna ...

Time to do a proper timing test and from then on, hopefully forget the ignition system for a few years, at least.
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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by herdygerdy »

Great work Aris, very impressive and am watching this with great interest.

I am not sure if this will be of any use, but here goes.

How are you working out the precise location of TDC on Cyls 1 & 6? Are you doing that by using the mark on the crankshaft? If so, there is a more accurate way but you then also have the challenge (I think?) of how to do this equally accurately for the other two cylinder pairs (and perhaps to do it even more accurately on 1 & 6 than can be done by lining up the mark on the crankshaft by eye).

In summary, the trick is to use a piston stop (length of stop doesn't really matter very much) to 'hold' the piston at a precise position either side of TDC. Rotate piston until it hits the piston stops at on one side of TDC, move your degree wheel to zero on the pointer at that position. Then rotate piston through remainder of stroke to come up the other side and when it hits the piston stop again take a reading. Divide that figure by two and that calculated figure MUST then be precisely TDC for that piston.

I made this piston stop up out of an old spark plug when I degreed in my camshafts during my last rebuild. (it is just sitting in a hole in my cyl. head as a holder for the photo). I dug out the guts of the plug and glued an old screw into the hole.

Image

I used it in this way.

a) Remove all spark plugs.

b) Bring the piston close enough to TDC by poking something long and soft down the plug hole.

c) Then wind the motor FORWARDS say 1/4 a turn. (Piston now descends slightly)

d) Insert the piston stop in the plug hole.

e) Wind the motor GENTLY BACKWARDS until it SOFTLY hits the piston stop.

f) Move your degree wheel to 0 degrees in relation to your pointer.

g) Now wind the motor FORWARDS again until the piston descends fully and comes up "the other side" of the stroke and GENTLY touches the piston stop once again.

h) Take a reading from your degree wheel in no. of degrees from 0.

i) Divide that No. of degrees by 2 and write it down. This new number will be the precise location of TDC for that piston when the piston is moved that no. of degrees.

j) Remove the piston stop.

k) Rotate motor FORWARD to exactly that no. of degrees that you wrote down in i) above and that piston will now be at EXACTLY TDC.

l) Now rotate your degree wheel only (not the motor) so 0 degrees position is directly now underneath your pointer and you have 0 degrees lined up at precisely piston TDC.

You are now good to go to set your timing precisely.

Hope this helps.

Cheers..Tony

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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by Kool_Biker »

Hi Tony

Thanks for the info, I also used the same technique to accurately find TDC and set ignition timing.
I did not have an old spark plug lying around, so I made my own TDC tool out of some scrap brass rod.
I haven't had a chance to ride my bike yet - maybe tonight. I do wonder if, correcting the above 6' misalignment + installing the ignition system power relay, would have any noticeable effect on the running of the engine.
P1070044.jpg
Cheers
Aris
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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by daves79x »

Inquiring minds want to know: After finding exact TDC, how far off are Honda's marks on the crankshaft?

Dave

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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by Kool_Biker »

Good point Dave, and I did take a pic right after setting true TDC:
P1070050.jpg
P1070051.jpg
Guess I was lucky this time.
Below is a pic from my previous crank (same engine).
TDC was set in exactly the same way, and yet there is a clearly discernible misalignment.
P1090823.jpg
What is your experience?
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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by asacuta »

I'm sorry, but that TDC mark doesn't look like "misalignment." How much was it off in degrees?
Al

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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by daves79x »

I suspected they would be pretty close - close enough for someone just trying to get an engine together, going by the book. When we still have guys getting camshaft timing wrong and trashing engines, I guess this kind of precise procedure is still a ways off for them. I'm glad we can try to help everyone here, experienced or new!

Dave

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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by herdygerdy »

Very interesting indeed Aris & Dave, and was surprised by how much your first crank was off by.

Curiously, and I can't for the life of me think why I didn't, but I never compared the marks to actual TDC when I was doing my engine rebuild and was learning how to degree the cams in (still learning BTW). When I do my ignition check, I will post pics as well.

Using a blind 6 mm thread tap, I was able to very carefully cut just a few threads in the end of the blind hole in the RH end of the crankshaft. There were just enough threads to enable me to mount my "degree wheel" directly on the end of the crank. The threads can just be seen in the pic below.

Image

Image

Image

Looking fwd to your ride report Aris.

Cheers..Tony

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Re: Dyna-S trigger units misalignment

Post by CopperCollar »

You guys are awesome. I always learn a new trick here...very cool.

Mike
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